$15 Billion Dollar Bailout Agreement Reached

"Congress will insist that any legislation include rigorous and ongoing oversight to guarantee that taxpayers are protected and that resources are directed to ensure the long-term viability and competitiveness of the American automobile industry."..READ THAT BIG THREE !! INCOMPETITIVENESS IS EATING ALL OF YOU..Such a cruel world, begging for help while the CEO is flying with a luxury business jet, and creating dumb decision in the past, and producing bad product to the market...WAKE UP !!!

none of them provide bad products. as you may have noticed euro companies are struggling too. and please keep your jelousy away. they have jets and such because they are successful. its their personal lives which they earned. not the business. you do not understand how business and accountancy works if you make amature comments like that. so just because you havnt reached that high of a level in your life keep the envy inside and dont bring bad energy to a page for car fans. if you dislike them or cars so much go on a caravaning page or something. and learn before making such crude comments.

Don’t think jealousy has anything to do with it. Nor do I believe if Toyota has any private jets…

Well, if you cannot afford it, it is common sense NOT to have it! Perhaps that’s the problem with the Big 3 Management – a lack thereof of common sense!

You may find this interesting: (15 -30 secs) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7740949.stm

US auto makers are ot suffering, they are very gravely ill. European auto makers are still in good financial health, able to ride out this recession. The fundamental problem in the US IS BAD PRODUCTS. The only reason Americans protest they are not, is because they never leave their own country, and never take an interest in European cars. They regard anything less than a V6 inferior, some will settle for nothing less than a V8. They value quantity over quality, and chrome over substance, and cubic inches over efficiency. Poor quality, inefficient, homogenous products which all look and feel the same, built down to a price, to every last cent. All because its American

So you guys want the CEO of one of the biggest corporations in the world to fly southwest business class? for some reason i dont see that happening....

Richard Branson does...! and many others do.

You mean biggest LOSS making corporations in the world!

There not in the shape that they are in because of their private planes. Really people? Stop arguing dumb points. The only problem GM and Ford have now is changing ignorant peoples opinions about their products which I'm am sad to same is the vast majority of the population. This ignorance has got to stop. Stop judging by the past and start judging by the present and the future.

all the american cars(except euro ford) are shi*t and the fact is every bad automakers has to be eliminated sometime, and this is the time for these 3, especially Chrysler.

I am sorry Panamera, but the European Auto Industry is in trouble yes, but only because of the financial situation in the world. The American industry has been making losses and has been in deep trouble since a number of years now. And yes the CEO coming in a business jet while his Corporate is burning through money is inappropriate

We all know this is nowhere near enough to save them, so this is taxpayers money simply putting off the inevitable.

Oops, that post has oddly gone into the wrong thread...

all right panamera..i am not talking about envy, geezz, what are you? a saint ? i am talking about their current financial condition, and yes they provide a lot of bad product, just read the news, you can do that, can't you..

it is such a shame that the big three have come to this point, begging for help, yes the world financial situation is in a very bad shape, but big three are already in trouble for years..MAINLY BECAUSE OF THEIR INABILITY TO COMPETE WITH " OTHERS "..i hope they can do better in the future

Personally I don't feel there is a future for the Big 3 given the current quality of their Management. $15 billion would have paid for a lot of welfare payments!

Not just welfair, but what about the 7% unemployed. It could have been given to small businesses. it could have been given to the american people as a stimulus. What about giving it to Zoos, they have been in trouble for a while too.... BUT NOT THE SMALL 3. bottom line there are other things to spend money on then a failing US auto industry.

I agree with you. If the big three can make their products as good as the European's, they would be just struggle for a short period of time during the world's economic downturn. The reality is, most of their product suck, at least that's what the market saying based on the sells figures. The economic downturn did not cause their death, it only accelerated it by a few years. However, they do make some good cars. Such as Corvette, Camaro, Viper, and Ford GT.

I totally agree. They have been selling cheap low quality crap on wheels with contempt for the average buyer who could discern the huge gap in respect not only to their japanese counterparts, but most ironically, to their very own eurobrands (Opel/Vauxhall, Ford EU).

It is likely that Ford will survive, GM will be downsized and Chrysler will become bankrupt.

Panamera, of course the word Good and Bad are subjective matters... but we can see from the numbers that the market leaders in the US now are Toyota Camry and Honda Accord which actually adapted the concept of Mid size family sedan from a Ford Taurus, that at one point was a best selling sedan in the US. So I think it is a matter of who make the better products for the consumers.

As far as the private jet is concerned, regardless of who own the jet, it is like seeing someone driving a corvette and asking for a change. Would you give it to him/her...

All Ford has to do, is to bring the NEW Euro Ford Mondeo COMPLETELY UNCHANGED from Europe, stick "Taurus" badges on it, and it'll probably slaughter anything from Japan.

Trouble is the cost of building it in Europe may be more than what they could sell it for in the low-cost US market.

Not the one to sound silly...But why do people feel that Ford will fold...I not a Ford Fan, but I feel that Ford has a better chance in the long run....Correct me if I am WRONG???

The only reason many people think Ford will fold is because the media lumps the Big 3 together.

Ford is asking for a standby credit line which they will only access if the other 2 carmakers go down, this can cause a chain reaction because the Big 3 share many parts suppliers. (this means that Ford's current plans can push through even without the bailout money)

GM and Chrysler on the other hand need the bailout money ASAP because the money they have is only good till the end of the month.

They should be called the Small 3 and that puts things in perspective!

I may have said (wrote) this before but if the US Government is going to throw billions of dollars into these companies, they need to have a Government representative on the board to give an account of what happens to the US-tax payers money...

...but also strip out the old board members, replace them with educated Indians from India (who work 10 times harder for 10 times less) and see if that doesn't improve the companies' profitability at least 10-fold...!

Alternatively give the board a GMAT test and those that fail - probably all - are out!

..then again: 10 x nothing = nothing! :)

I don't think going with indians is the best thing, they are not an IT company. I would go with Germans or Japs, their salary is irrelevant, even if they get paid 10 million / year that's a small % of the income of GM when it was successful. As long as they re-structure it to meet today's standards.

It bothers me to read how ignorant so many of you are. If the big three products were so inferior, there drop in sales would far surpass any of their competitors. Yet they remain midpack as far as sales go. I could be laughing at Porsche right now and say that since they are losing a greater precentage of sales then even Chrysler that their product must therefore be the shityest. It has nothing to do with product quality, because they are all about equal, some brands like bmw and mercedes focus on luxury for added $ that doesn't mean that all cars that don't spend as much money getting full leather/wood grain interiors are pos, it just means that they are shooting for a different target demographic. If you look at the numbers, American car companies still outsell everything in America. That being said, it bothers me to no end to have to side with your ignorant comments. These automakers don't need a bailout, and will end up doing better if they didn't get one. If they don't get one, their unions get fucked, they declare bankruptcy, lose all their pension plans, become dept free from how far in the hole the unions made them. And who knows they can probably even finger the unions as they boot them out the door.

What do you mean they aren't making crap products? The only thing keeping them alive is some national pride, but that fades fast if the onslaught of crap keeps coming out of their factories. Also, contrary to what you may have heard, the US is not the world. Sales in the US alone do not reflect a company's profit. I don't hear of Porsche losing 2 billion $/month, or VW. Sure they won't be making 10 billion $/quarter but they most definitely wont be going -7. Either way figure out how long this will keep them afloat, 15 billion /3 is 5 billion each, for GM that means 2 months if things keep going as is, and i think this quarter will be the worst. They wont last till march the end of march. And then what???? The Volt?? That is going to get killed by the new Insight, what's coming from ford? a new Mustang??? Chrysler has nothing... So what did any of this resolve? NOTHING! Same crap coming out of their factories, union got screwed over for something that isn't their fault, and the CEOs still have their jets and multi million $ mansions. Chrysler and GM will merge to create a bigger pile of crap which will help them only at getting a bigger loan due to more equity, and Ford will sell off as much as it can. I will buy something from the VW group next because Germany is never going to disappear, and i strongly believe they will come out the strongest from this crysis, with their minimalist and simple thought process and attention to detail. Japan will follow them closely. US is screwed, their empire was bound to crumble, and it has started to.

Radmeister. I have argued with you on the past about this many times. You have never successfully rebutted any of my arguments. All of your statements are based off of pure speculation, and your "experience" with one saab. Could I condemn the entire european auto market because bmw has had some horrible reliability issues with some of their cars? Read a book, not everyone can afford luxury, the average middle class American cannot afford an R8 like you have stated that you believe. If they could afford luxury cars, they wouldn't be luxury anymore, because everyone would have it. IMO Audi puts out way bigger pos then any american company. It's "supercar" puts out less power then a charger and gets worse fuel economy to boot. I find it hard to pay 3x more for a car that can handle better on a track, yet is inferior in all the ways I would use on a regular basis. Worse on gas, rides stiffer, wayy more expensive to fix, not as reliable...

can't contain myself any longer... American manufacturers sell more in America because of national pride; that part is true. When you go to Germany you see a horde of German cars cause of German national pride; Aston Martin's biggest market is the UK and last I checked Alfa Romeo's biggest market is Italy.

America is a vastly different market to the rest of the world from my personal experience so what you see there doesn't reflect what happens elsewhere; where I'm from (which is South Africa) people buy German and Japanese cars because we feel they respect us enough to give us some of their best products, last I checked South Africa is biggest AMG market and BMWs first subsidiary outside of Germany is in South Africa; you should see the crap Chevy sells, just Daewoos with a Chevy badge... and Chryslers aren't ever the best in their class, EVER. Where I'm from it's hard to believe American cars really are as good as you say they are but that's cause they hardly ever sell their best products outside of the US.

I'm not gonna argue sayin all American cars are crap but if what you say about American cars is true then they should contemplate selling those good cars elsewhere in the world; Ford doesn't undersell itself that's why their the least affected of the Big 3... but the Big 3 got complacent; they stopped innovating and just followed the rest of the world... if you compete in a market never fight to keep up, fight to change the rules of the game.

First of all, the Big 3 needs to eliminate the unions!!! THE UNION IS THE MAIN REASON THEY ARE IN THIS MESS!! Secondly, part of their products are to be blame. Most would agree that the Big 3 does have some good products, and its improved tremendously the past few years.

So here's the deal; -take out Union entirely -get rid of all those Board of Directors -kill some inferior line of products -start bringing eurobrands!!! -START BRINGING EUROBRANDS!!!

I don't get it, why would the Big 3 think that they have to have a sub-par line of products just for the American market? This might be true 10 yrs ago, but c'mon now, American consumers have moved on, so wake up, brings your eurobrand.....we deserved that!!!

IMHO, this is what I think the Big 3 should do. We do not have the funds to provide [indefinite] bailout for your wrong decisions.

Lastly, pls get rid of the Unions, its not healthy for your company!!

It's not possible for them to get rid of the union, there are many federal laws protecting their rights to have an union. The only way they can get rid of it is to offer them MORE than they currently get on the condition they disband the union. And all that would do is cost them more, and after the workers receive that raise and their contract for it is over they will form another union all over again with now a higher starting point..The union is not the problem, VW is union too. The problem is their corporate structure and years of over expansion with no products that can support this. Their entire manufacturing is based on the push method, where they push product through, even if there is no demand they are setup for failure because slowing production costs them more than producing cars and leaving them in a lot. The Japs and Germans are a pull system, their contracts with suppliers reflect this, they can afford to slow down production and production is driven by demand. Toyota here in Canada is slowing production and cutting shifts, the difference is they see this as an opportunity to send their employees for training, no layoffs. The big 3 need to completelly restructure their organization.

1) Close a few plants 2) Renegotiate contracts with suppliers to reflect a demand driven system (pull) 3) Train employees properly 4) Spend the spare time they have now to reflect on their mistakes and improve quality 5) Get rid of duplicate products 6) Import more products from europe 7) Develop a trendy reliable car, something along the lines of the Mini with a small diesel, join with apple to design a media control system 8) Cut pick ups to 1 model, quad cab with a diesel because if you don't need a Duramax Diesel you don't need a truck in the first place.

These are just a few things, which need to be topped off by hiring the two top firms for quality and productivity (one from germany, one from japan) to completely re-evaluate the plants one by one, implement new production methods and such.

yawn, you could always claim bankruptsy default on all the pension plans, and renegotiate the union, heck if you go bankrupt you can start over, rehire all the workers and write in a anti union pact in their contracts. Unions are useless now a days, if a company treats their workers like shit, they always have the option to seek work elsewhere.

You can't write a no union pact....It's highly against the constitution. All you need to form a union is 100 people to sign a petition, it then goes to the govt who decides whether or not its warranted for a union. Most of the time they will approve it. If you get 1000 petitions signed its an automatic approval and you have an union. Based on the size of any of these car makers getting 1000 petitions signed is easy and wouldn't even take a week. Bankruptcy wont get rid of the union, the only way is like i said, fire everyone, hire new people and offer them a better package than the union. Now what can you to prevent them from starting a union? Not much other than offering them a better package than the union has elsewhere. It's a painful struggle,.

German companies have union representatives on their supervisory boards.

i do agree alot of american cars are rubbish. but the ones that arent, we need in this world. german cars are known for absolute perfection. japanese cars are cheap thrills while the good american cars just make you happy. they are power. muscle cars. as bad as they are the world needs them. cars like the chrysler 300c, corvette, viper, ram and hummers. we want them or atleast i do. great cars. its just the way it works. and im sure as you may all know if GM goes down alot of other car companies that have nothing to do with GM may suffer dramatically too.

As for the private jets.them buying it with their own earned money its fine. great. but yea taking it outa company funds at the moment is appropiate. and i doubt they did that. yea they have lots of jets and cars but i believe they were purchased long before Bush f'd the US economy in the A

i meant inappropriate in second paragraph

Why is congress using double standards? $700B was given to Banks for nothing and the automakers only get $15B after driving in their own horrible cars all the way from Detroit. I guess with elections now over, no one cares about voter sentiments.

Bankruptcy or not, I think the 61% of people who felt this bailout was for the birds will not buy from the Small 3 anyway. Even some of the banks are making it more difficult to obtain loans on the Small 3 because of their unknown financial status and what residual values would be on the cars when you turn them back in.

If GM had a product line it would be a different story. Yes, all car companies have low sales because of the economy, but GM's products have been going down for the past years. The volt is not going to turn the company around. If the hybrid Tahoe achieved 30 -40mpg's instead of 20, that would start turning the company around and they could be a LEADER rather than a follower, (?Tahoe..diesel/hybrid with plug in) Most people view GM as a rental car supplier primarily. Keep Chevy and Cadillace but dump the rest. The must be a smaller company as there is so much more competition.

the hybrid Ford Escape puts out 34 mpg in the city. Thats 4 mpg more the green car of the year tdi jetta.

To all of you posting from outside the US, welcome to a view of American politics! The politicians are giving out 15 Billion in order to cover their own asses! Rather than provide a long-term solution they have handed out a short-term solution so the next administration will get blamed when the bailout doesn't work! Before the economy dumped, Ford was well on their way to being profitable again and GM was starting to show real promise - especally with their newer vehicles. Everyone seems to forget this is an economic problem and not a product design problem. Even the car companies with the best products are losing money right now. The Democraic party was pushing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (both products of the Democratic party by the way) to loosten up on their minimum loan requirements back went Clinton (a Democrat) was running for President. One of the goals of his platform was to make it so anyone can own their own home! When the Bush administration wanted to crack down on the crappy loans being handed out a couple years back the Democrats voted it down. In my opinion, the blame goes to the politicians for giving us a failed housing market first then to the unions for burdening the US auto companies to the point that they can't compete then third the CEOs of the big three for failing to stand up to the unions and agreeing to pattern bargaining while letting accountants tell them what they can build. There are other union companies in the US that have dealt properly with union demands which are in much better shape today because of it. Unfortunately, a bailout won't eliminate the unions so I'm not so sure bankruptcy wouldn't be more beneficial in the long run. Bankrupcy or not, a bailout may be required either way if folks still aren't buying cars because they fear losing their job!

joe_limon .... the main point that you have well and truly missed in your "understanding" of the situation is GM in particular have had a massive fall in sales from an already very low point. They have been struggling for last 3 years and even 2 years ago there was talk of very big trouble in their business. The other manufacturer sales figures have dropped from an extreme position of strenght as many like Toyota had had record years 3 years in a row.

BIG DIFFERENCE !

Limon always makes statements that are wrong. Whatever. Look what his companies have to face while German companies have no chance of bankrupcy

The big three have been losing money for years. And yes, it is partially a design issue, considering the economy wasn't going to crap at that point in time. It's just a fact that most of the planet doesn't prefer American products, and would rather drive a Japanese, Korean or European car. However, the main proof that this is actually a design issue is evident when you look at the Ford lineup. In Europe Fords do really well, and even lead in certain categories. In America they offer an entirely different lineup and they lose money consistently. Same with GM. Most people in the rest of the world don't have much of a taste for American designs and American "quality", but they do like Opels and Holdens. It's just a fact, American products don't have the same quality and finesse that many other products have. They're generally more crude, with more cheap plastic interiors, bigger (brutish) less sophisticated engines, and soft unresponsive and dull suspensions. That happens to be what most American used to like driving, but that is rapidly changing. To an untrained eye, yes American cars are comparable in quality, but when you scrutinize them they are not as close as you think. Sure, BMW's are not perfect and they do have reliability issues that are more frequent then they used to be, but people recognize the attention to detail and the overall quality of the package. Of course they are more expensive than an Average American car and that's part of the problem. For years, the big three made inexpensive cars, which also means they were cheap and not of very good quality. This is the market they were going after...their demographic was Joe Plumber, not Richy Rich. And, when you build such an image over the course of many years then you develop a reputation based on it. The problem is the market has changed and many people would rather spend more money to get a better and longer lasting product. People have finally come to their senses to realize its better to go for quality and quantity (meaning, better to buy a better more expensive car that will last longer rather then a cheap car that will need to be replaced sooner). Unfortunately, you can't change your reputation overnight, and simply put American products are not associated with high quality, attention to detail or good handling (with the exception of a few models like the Corvette and Viper). And this is the nature of the problem. People with money would prefer to buy European and Japanese, and therefore American manufacturers will always have trouble selling their cars in a higher price bracket. American cars are seen as average and inexpensive next to most other brands, and this is why we see them as taxis, delivery vehicles and fleet vehicles. Anyhow, the point in all of this is that although they have vastly improved their products (except for Chrysler which lags behind) it is too little too late. Ford will most likely live on thanks to their International operations which are much more successful than at home, GM will live on in some form, and Chrysler will disappear or be absorbed (and thank goodness for that).