Volkswagen Targets Toyota with 4 New Platforms

10 by 2018

by Frank de Leeuw van Weenen
November 26, 2007 2:40 PM
Filed Under: Corporate/Financial, German, Volkswagen

Four new architectures

Volkswagen has big plans, really big plans. So ambitious that even the mighty Toyota get caught in between the crosshair's of VW's board. VW hopes to catch up to Toyota by 2018 with 10 million sales. Volkswagen tallied up 5,7 million sales in 2006.

Key to the VW plans are four new architectures, of which the transverse-engined MQB platform will be a cornerstone. The MQB platform will be used for small, lower-medium and upper-medium models, possibly totalling a grand total of 6 million cars, and is rumoured to be the logical platform replacement of up to 20 models. Current record holding platform is the VW PQ35/46 platform with 2,3 million units, underpinning, amongst others, the VW Golf.

According to an insider, the first model based on the new MQB platform could be launched by 2010 as the next generation VW Touran. Ulrich Hackenberg, VW Board Member, was quoted: “MQB is planned for a broad application, from small cars up to and including upper-medium. The first model to emerge can be expected in 2010.”

The second architecture will be called the rear-engined MHB platform and is destined to underpin VW's New Small Family minicar range, of which the Up! concepts are forerunners.

VW also has a mid-engine sports car platform in mind for the R8 and Lamborghinis. There are even some rumours floating around that Bugatti may come with a more-affordable model.

Last, but certainly not least, is the MLB platform with longitudinally mounted engines taken over from Audi. The MLB is currently used for the new Audi A4 and A5. Hackenberg said: “But MLB could be used for models up to the largest in our group.” Which would not just be the larger Audis (A6 and A8) but also the VW Phaeton and even the Bentley's.

All this sounds very logical, but besides that it will also be highly efficient. Four major platforms to cover every model in the VW Group can cut development costs by up to 40%, for instance safety technologies like crumple zones can be shared across many models. But besides cutting costs, it will also enable Volkswagen to develop new and niche models very quickly in order to respond to market demand.

Source: Automotive News (sub req)
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Comments

carfan519
November 26, 2007 2:58 PM
theres no reason that they can't do it. More of the automation line technology which Toyota uses is German designed. VW just has to stoop to a quality level that is just above Toyota to make their cars the price.

foose1397
November 26, 2007 3:26 PM
Good in theory but can it be executed. The Phaeton was a flop and I am still not convinced with their reliability. However, this is a time if ever to pounce on Toyota because there design is weak (really weak) and quality has slipped a little

phobos
November 26, 2007 3:39 PM
yes, toyota's design is getting week,,there are no exciting product from toyota, landcruiser?it looks old, matrix?it is ugly, sport car? they don't have it,

DeRay
November 26, 2007 4:03 PM
I feel the same way about Toyota their latest designs are not that exciting. One thing VW will have to consider is the price tag of these new vehicles. For most American consumers they are not going to purchase a VW when you can get something just as good if not better for less.

lexakis
November 26, 2007 4:14 PM
no way vw can catch up toyota...can mercedes keep up with lexus????15 years ago mercedes was the leader...now????????if toyota wants to really leave them behind it can do it in an instant...just borrow some design language from lexus and bye bye german dynosaurs...

GeeDougg
November 27, 2007 2:33 PM
Lexakis, your style of "Azn-Pride"-tattooed ricer comment borders on subtle but not so well-hidden racism.... No way VW can catch up (to) Toyota?! They can easily do that and then some.... I'm wondering if you're the typical jealous racist type who likes to think Japan makes the best cars in the world when clearly they're always behind Germany.... Sure, Toyota sells more cars, but they sell more crap, which is nothing to be proud of. And if their infrastructure wasn't built primarily around reliability of cheaper parts that are more readily available through a well-established network, they wouldn't even have the reliability bit to be proud of. And besides, if you drive their cars as hard as one would drive a BMW, Lexus and Toyota and other Japanese cars would start to look a lot less reliable by comparison. And then there's the fact that people have pre-conceived notions built into their minds that all Japanese cars are reliable and good at gas mileage while all American and German and other cars are the opposite, which (at least in the case of German cars and some American cars) isn't true, as has been proven. And Mercedes-Benz only needs to sort out their profit vs. quality problems and construct a better servicing and customer support system/programme, and Lexus would be licked, since Mercedes Benz beats Lexus at pretty much everything. And let's not forget who's always trying to catch whom - Lexus' brand slogan has always been humorously parodied as "The relentless pursuit of Mercedes-Benz", or "The relentless pursuit of Germany", or "The relentless pursuit of BMW", so on ad so forth.... They also desperately try to copy German designs because most of their own designs are flops, and they only ever accidentally get one or two of them right (or at least half-OK) by accidentally copying all the right bits from BMWs and Mercs and putting them together.... If Toyota "really wants to leave them behind it can do it in an instant"?! Good one! Sorry, but your attempts to completely reverse the facts are going nowhere. Toyota DESPERATELY wants to leave them behind, but the fact is that it can't, and if the German companies stop being as greedy and indecisive, they can easily humiliate and annihilate Toyota. And Toyota borrowing "design language" from Lexus would actually technically be the same as Toyota "borrowing" design language from Mercedes-Benz and BMW. In essence, there IS no Lexus design language. There definitely is a very uncertain and horrific Toyota design language, but that's pretty much useless anyway. And your last comment is what really takes the cake: "bye bye German 'dynosaurs'"?!?!?! Haha, that's hilarity at its best (or worst, I suppose, depending on how one looks at it). There's a reason everyone talks about "German engineering" and not "Japanese engineering"; sure not all German cars are exactly amazing, but the average German cars is and has been (judging by continuing and approaching trends, always will be) head and shoulders and torso and legs and feet above the average Japanese car. The best Japanese car ever (arguably) was the NSX, and a bunch of unimaginative drones killed it off and now it's too old - of course even THEN it was still a bit of a Ferrari copy. Hopefully they'll make a proper new one soon.... Look at the current fleet of average/mediocre Japanese cars and if you use logic and judge with clarity, you might be able to spot the fact that they're the dinosaurs, left behind by the pack of superior engineered marvels that Europe dishes out.

Ferrariguy
November 28, 2007 1:51 AM
Calm down GeeDoug, typing that much isn't going to change anything. Relax, lol!

puddingpuppet
November 28, 2007 4:00 AM
Your German fan-boyism sounds just as racist. Way to be a hypocrite.

GeeDougg
November 28, 2007 3:23 PM
German fanboyism?! Wow, so apparently that's German fanboyism now.... Even though I mentioned Europe, not just Germany. And I also pointed out that the NSX is a great car; I guess you think that's German too, then.... Wonderful. Oh and let's not forget that apparently saying that not all German cars are super amazing (like many might think) is German fanboyism as well.... Yeah, you can really see the racism there. Great, you sure proved me wrong. Excellent job. Sounds like you need to read more carefully (or double-check the meaning of hypocrisy)....

GeeDougg
November 28, 2007 3:25 PM
Ferrariguy: Sorry dude; I know, and you've got a point there, but I typically type a lot, and I get really worked up by this sort of thing.... Thanks for being civil and sane (unlike some other people).

puddingpuppet
November 28, 2007 7:15 PM
Sounds like I touched a nerve.

GeeDougg
November 29, 2007 12:55 PM
Yeah, that's EXACTLY what happened.... You touched a nerve. You know which one it was? The one that tells me you have no idea what you're talking about, and there's also a few BS-detector alarms going off in my head and telling me you agree with lexakis, only knowing that you won't be able to prove your point, you'd instead prefer to disguise your hatred as pointless one-liners. Afterall, I see no answer to the fact that I clearly showed that your so-called "German-fanboyism" remark was an empty s***-disturber attack.... Yeah, I guess anytime anyone proves someone else wrong by providing a detailed, thorough and undeniable answer to a childish attack, the instigator simply "must've hit a nerve".... Awesome. I'd tell you to grow up, but I doubt there'll be any point....

puddingpuppet
November 29, 2007 3:01 PM
It must be fun to argue and yell at people on the internet.

GeeDougg
November 29, 2007 4:49 PM
I don't know, you tell me, is it?! First yelling and arguing for no reason, and now simply assuming the roll of a spambot.... Well, as long as you're at least impressing yourself....

puddingpuppet
November 30, 2007 4:57 AM
You know what I really love? How you talk to me like you're better than me. Keep up the snobbery.

GeeDougg
December 1, 2007 4:51 PM
...Says the guy who started out with "your German fan-boyism sounds just as racist", and "way to be a hypocrite" (for no reason, might I add), and continued it on with "sounds like I touched a nerve". Wow, just, wow.... I mean, just based on what I'm seeing here, for someone playing innocent, you sure do have a knack for being a snobby fanboy and then projecting your own complexes onto your selected opposition.... That's great. You know what? I don't know you, I don't claim to know you, and judging by the way you're continuously representing yourself, I don't WANT to know you, because you're only spamming and creating an online scene and arguing about absolutely nothing, and not even answering anything I've written ABOUT THE TOPIC intelligibly. This is a waste of my time, however small an amount of time it might be.

puddingpuppet
December 1, 2007 8:13 PM
Hahaha, I love it when people get so worked up about something that doesn't matter at all. And what exactly am I being a snobby fanboy about by calling you a German fanboy? I like both German and Japanese cars. Guess that makes me a international fanboy.

GeeDougg
December 2, 2007 2:47 PM
Actually, based on everything I pointed out above (which you didn't even answer, surprise surprise), I STILL think you're displaying fanboyism (just not sure towards what - it's probably "Tuners" since you argue like every other pro-tuner anti-German tends to argue..... And I like how you think I'm "worked up" but continue to answer because you can't leave it alone. If it really doesn't matter to you, wouldn't you have left it alone by now?! Uhuh.... Let's not forget the fact that your original accusations of me being a German fanboy were dead in the water and you still haven't been able to elaborate on how exactly anything I said makes me a German fanboy, and worse yet, racist.... You've worked yourself into something you can't argue your way out of, and you keep steering around it and avoiding the fact that you're being childish and snobby and acting like a benevolently neutral know-it-all.... Haha. Comic genius. I've said what needs to be said....

jsb
November 26, 2007 4:39 PM
Consumers are savvy enough to look for both quality and reliability in their cars and trucks. VW vehicles lack the reliability and service experience of competing Japanese brands, and this is where they need to focus their efforts most first.

jsb
November 26, 2007 4:47 PM
I also hope they "find their roots" are start building vehicles that are fun-to-drive, affordable, and lightweight again. The philosophy of trying to beat Mercedes at its game failed ... no one wants an overpriced, overweight VW no matter how many gadgets and cylinders it has ... if they stick with competing products and price points with Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda, they will do well again ... oh, and they really need a RWD Miata fighter roadster! The Eos is for posers and chicks.

Harajoshi
November 26, 2007 5:04 PM
Good luck VW; but when you rule the world then, don't forget to open a factory in Sweden, meet you there ;)

Ferrariguy
November 27, 2007 1:28 AM
VW cars are pretty good when it comes to the build and quality of materials used, but like others have said price and reliability has been its downfall. Phaeton, Eos???? GTI and Jetta are the bread and butter so far.

F599GTB
November 27, 2007 3:14 AM
Good luck VW with whatever you're gonna do, but with your failures like the Phaeton, and your lack of a general marketing audience, you're just gonna have a hard time. Don't try to mess with one of the most successful brands of all time and just go do your own thing.

carfan519
November 27, 2007 5:55 PM
all of these theories/tests of reliability come from firms which are owned by media companies that are owned mostly by people of "a certain faith" which are not fond of germans and will glorify anyone else as long as it is not germany/ german cars. own a VW and you will see that you love it and that the reliabilty tests are based on parameters which are made to make the german cars do poorly.

GeeDougg
November 28, 2007 3:41 PM
Finally, someone pointed it out.... And let's not forget that even the customer satisfaction surveys are unreliable, since they depend on people's expectations and opinions and loyalties, as well as how well they drive the cars they own.

Banter
November 27, 2007 10:49 PM
Lekaxis....I don't know how long you have been following the motor industry,Toyota created the Lexus brand specifically to take on the expensive German makes (Mercedes,BMW,Audi)in the US market...because no American consumer would pay premium price for an "upmarket" Toyota and if you look at the original LS400 the design had more than a hint of Mercedes and also Auto Express did take a Merc S class and a LS400 apart after 60,000 miles and the quality of the Mercedes came through. For example, the front seats of the Lexus LS400 were rusty(lower grade steel)compared that to the Mercedes which was completely clean of rust! also the wheel arches were better wax coated compared in the Mercedes compared to Lexus. It is a known fact that Japanese Motor Manufacturers will not spend the money where the consumer does not see the "quality"....As far as I am concerned quality is from within and not just on the surface..to justify the price.

GeeDougg
November 28, 2007 3:50 PM
Well put. And in addition, it's worth noting that Mercedes-Benz had built some of the most reliable cars in the history of the automobile (specifically the old S-Class); if I'm not mistaken, they still hold several vehicle lifetime mileage records. I've also known many people (including my granddad) who've owned near perfect Benzes that never so much as let out a peep even when driven at their top speeds (about 225KPH) regularly.... Do that with the average Lexus and the quality and reliability argument for Lexus starts to disappear entirely. Now if only Mercedes could complete their return to true form....

carfan519
November 28, 2007 5:27 AM
banter seems very intellegent and I agree with him

Ghent2007
November 28, 2007 2:46 PM
hello VW? where is the RWD? If u dont have RWD, forget about competing with BMW and Mercedes, or even Lexus. Audi will still be a Tier 2 player without RWD. What does RWD mean? Sheer Driving Pleasure!!!(BMW Trademark).

GeeDougg
November 28, 2007 3:46 PM
Audi's ahead of you (well, just slightly anyway, hehe).... They're planning on introducing specifically RWD cars, and as odd as it might sound, Quattro GMBH is going to offer RWD versions of the newer RS cars a couple of years down the road. The reason for that is obvious: they want to compete with BMW. And since BMW already has amazing RWD cars and is inching away at Audi's territory with plans to add an X-Drive option to all their cars (including all M cars), Audi will have to take some of BMW's share in return to balance out the playing field. As for competing with Mercedes-Benz, and Lexus, I don't know whether you were being serious, but Audi is easily on par with Mercedes-Benz with or without RWD. As for Lexus, well, strictly from the involvement and driving pleasure point of view, Audi is miles ahead of Lexus. The best Lexus (in terms of handling and sportiness and driving pleasure) is the new IS, and even that still falls short.

Ghent2007
November 29, 2007 11:16 PM
GeeDougg, i am not sure where you got your story, but i don't think it is true. It would be great if they offer RWD cars, since i will have more option. But they are so wedded to Quattro, the chance of them doing a RWD is practically, nil.

GeeDougg
November 30, 2007 4:39 AM
Well the first time I heard it was at the Audi dealership near where I live, and I saw a news post about rumours of Audi planning to introduce a RWD option on a car news site (might have been MotorAuthority, not sure...).

puddingpuppet
December 2, 2007 9:13 PM
Hahaha, whatever you say bro. You're clearly better than me. Please continue to sit on your high horse. I don't remember being worked up. I remember laughing while reading all these. I don't know if that constitutes being worked up. You tell me, I guess I'm not smart enough to figure it out. And honestly I don't give a s*** if I can't back up the whole "German fanboy" remark because I honestly don't care about disproving people on the internet. You know why? BECAUSE IT'S THE INTERNET. If you can't handle someone ripping on you, then grow some balls.

GeeDougg
December 3, 2007 1:37 PM
Yeah, keep talking about snobbyness and me supposedly sitting on a high horse when you're the one acting the part. Yeah, that's REALLY believable. Stop projecting. All you've done is whine about nothing. Look up and read what I said again: you're the one who couldn't handle what was said "on the internet", which means if anyone has to "grow balls", it would be you, your highness. I never said I was better than you, but you talk like you ARE better than me. Actions speak louder than accusations. Keep telling yourself that I'm worked up and you're laughing when reading all these. Well thanks for proving yourself wrong again, because as I said before, you're the one who got worked up about my answer to something SOMEONE ELSE SAID! Haha. And if you really DO get a laugh out of arguing pointlessly, then as I pointed out before, you're just spamming. And besides, you just contradicted yourself, because here you are sitting there telling me I'm on a high horse thinking I'm better than you and being snobby, etc. etc. etc., and yet you openly admit you're supposedly "laughing while reading all these", which means YOU yourself, as I stated before, are the one who's snobby and thinks he's better than me. And even if you think you are or really are or aren't or whateer, I don't care. What astonds me is how you continue jumping from branch to branch to avoid answering my original response to your accusations. Yor last resort is the typical "honestly I don't care bla bla bla" which is apparently a bulletproof argument in your fantasy land. Keep digging....

GeeDougg
December 3, 2007 1:38 PM
Yeah, keep talking about snobbishness and me supposedly sitting on a high horse when you're the one acting the part. Yeah, that's REALLY believable. Stop projecting. All you've done is whine about nothing. Look up and read what I said again: you're the one who couldn't handle what was said "on the internet", which means if anyone has to "grow balls", it would be you, your highness. I never said I was better than you, but you talk like you ARE better than me. Actions speak louder than accusations. Keep telling yourself that I'm worked up and you're laughing when reading all these. Well thanks for proving yourself wrong again, because as I said before, you're the one who got worked up about my answer to something SOMEONE ELSE SAID! Haha. And if you really DO get a laugh out of arguing pointlessly, then as I pointed out before, you're just spamming. And besides, you just contradicted yourself, because here you are sitting there telling me I'm on a high horse thinking I'm better than you and being snobby, etc. etc. etc., and yet you openly admit you're supposedly "laughing while reading all these", which means YOU yourself, as I stated before, are the one who's snobby and thinks he's better than me. And even if you think you are or really are or aren't or whatever, I don't care. What astounds me is how you continue jumping from branch to branch to avoid answering my original response to your accusations. Your last resort is the typical "honestly I don't care bla bla bla" which is apparently a bulletproof argument in your fantasy land. Keep digging....

puddingpuppet
December 3, 2007 2:59 PM
Hot damn I love inciting people.

GeeDougg
December 3, 2007 5:06 PM
Hahaha, incredible.... That's quite a sudden transformation you went through, from an innocent lamb who was supposedly under attack by me the "snob on a high horse" to someone purposefully fuelling the fire and apparently enjoying it too.... Wow. Everything you say just becomes more and more believable.... I love it. I'm just gonna continue to point out every single thing you say that's logically messed up.... I'm loving it. You're reminiscent of a 5 year old who just has to have the last word in as if it proves his or her case, despite being proven oh so woefully and embarrassingly wrong and proven to be nothing but a spammer who argues just for the sake of arguing. Haha. And what I love even more is that you're hiding behind the whole "I just love inciting people" BS as a plan B because the original claims and accusations under the guise of a logical and neutral person didn't fly! Hmm, I wonder what's next....

puddingpuppet
December 4, 2007 5:07 AM
No I really do just find it funny. I like how you think you know me so well though.

GeeDougg
December 13, 2007 8:45 AM
Wow, so I check back after more than a week, and that's all you had to say.... Bravo.... You sure proved me wrong. BTW, whether you find it funny or not is none of my concern. It just shows what a troll you are. Which is what's truly funny. And BTW, your last sentence makes no sense at all because nothing I've said indicates that I believe I know you well. I just call'em as I see'em, and you're just setting yourself up for everything I've said so far. Everything that I've pointed out has been based on what you yourself said. Deal with it.

puddingpuppet
December 14, 2007 11:19 AM
I'm dealing with it just fine. And I'm still laughing at all of this. You really need to learn to let go (and yes I know if you come look at this you'll tell me that me reply to your last post indicates that I'm not letting go, blah blah blah. You can save your breath on that one, because I don't care. I'm just looking forward to the next hilarious reply from you).

GeeDougg
December 15, 2007 9:15 AM
Good to know.... So you've got some severe issues there then; I mean, you say you're STILL laughing at all this, so clearly you're either really bored or have no life or need a checkup from the neck-up. Well, at least you answered your own idiotically hypocritical remark right away. Laugh, don't laugh, I don't really give a shit. As I mentioned before, you started this by being a childish internet troll (as you partially admitted), so I'll just enjoy being entertained by your ludicrously misguided illusions of grandeur while continuously proving how moronic your little internet adventure is. Have fun making yourself look even worse.

puddingpuppet
December 15, 2007 1:10 PM
Illusions of grandeur huh? Yeah, you've really got me pegged, Dr. Freud. I just love proving how retarded it is trying to make a point on the internet.

GeeDougg
December 16, 2007 10:17 AM
Your high and mighty attitude is where the reflection of the illusions of grandeur shine through. Let's see, should I start with quoting "sounds like I touched a nerve", or "if you can't handle someone ripping on you, then grow some balls", or "hot damn I love inciting people", or "I'm still laughing at all of this", or "you really need to learn to let go", or perhaps "I'm just looking forward to the next hilarious reply from you".... No, no, that doesn't make you sound high and mighty at all.... Just goes to prove what I said earlier about you constantly projecting; you say things or act a certain way (on the internet, no less) that really makes you sound like you think you're better than me, and yet you seem to think that by projecting that on me first and saying that I'M the one who thinks he's better than you or high and mighty or on a high horse, you're safe from being called out for acting out those exact same things yourself. Sorry bud. I won't even bother going into how pointlessly unrelated the whole "Dr. Freud" remark was. You just love "proving" (!!!) how "retarded" it is trying to make a point on the internet?! Well, it's not exactly hard to see that you're (YET AGAIN) proving yourself wrong, because not only have you not proven me to be anything you've claimed (and certainly not in your last two posts, haha), you've also proven yourself wrong and basically admitted that what you're "trying to do" is retarded, because clearly you're "trying to make a point", and if you disagree, then it just proves another thing I pointed out earlier, which is that you're basically acting like a spambot. Congratulations. You keep going back and forth between being a troll and playing innocent. I love it. I wonder what's next.... I'll probably be compared to Hitler at some point, haha.... Oh and by the way, you don't have to keep making a new post, just to let you know. Even though you clearly HAVE nothing logical or new to add even to this so called discussion/argument/whatever, you can still at the very least put your "reply" where a REPLY would normally go, instead of making a new comment as though you're replying to the news article, which you clearly aren't (nor have you done so at any point) - just a thought, your majesty....

puddingpuppet
December 16, 2007 10:50 AM
I'm not trying to prove anything, only merely having fun with this whole situation. And does it really bother you that I'm not hitting "reply" every time. Are you that nit-picky?

GeeDougg
December 17, 2007 6:39 AM
First you say "I just love proving..." and then you follow it up with "I'm not trying to prove anything".... Haha, you're right, this IS getting to be pretty hilarious. Although, I personally don't think you really understand why.... And no, it doesn't bother me. I was just making a point. HEH

puddingpuppet
December 17, 2007 10:02 AM
Ok. Show me one person who is not hypocritical in any way. You can't because everyone is a hypocrite in some way or another. You having to constantly take apart everything I say shows that you think highly of yourself. It looks like illusions of grandeur are reflected onto yourself as well with your long-winded explanations and points. You told me that I clearly need the last word in but you always seem to do the same thing. Nobody escapes hypocrisy, no matter how hard they try.

GeeDougg
December 17, 2007 8:20 PM
I could show you thousands of people that I personally see who aren't hypocritical. And that's not even the point. Not every person thinks they're hypocritical, and if you think every person is hypocritical then you're just showing how you think and what you believe.

Also, how in the unholiest of the furthest nether regions of hell does it show I think highly of myself if I supposedly, according to your highness, "constantly take apart" everything you say?! That's just irrational. One doesn't have to think highly of themselves to prove that something being said doesn't hold up or make any sense. Likewise, one might think highly of themselves and still not be able to take apart anything the opposing side of the argument says (like yourself, for instance). You started a stupid argument that you know is based on absolutely nothing and have admitted to just arguing for the s*** of it on more than one occasion, and yet you're intent on proving - despite your "I'm not trying to prove anything..." remark - that you're not a troll or a random spammer. And you might also want to scroll up and read what I've said again, because at no point did I tell you that you clearly need to have the last word in, but funny enough, that's exactly what it is, so thanks for finally bringing up a proven point that's true and makes sense: you seemingly just like to have the last word in, regardless of whether or not you're proving anything, or even making any sense, for that matter. Whether or not that's the case (!) I'm still able to rip apart everything you're saying because you started this with stupid, childish, and unfounded accusations that you probably think of as counter-accusations, and you were proven wrong on all counts and arguments made by yourself (which, might I add, you still haven't answered). So before you go into a "NO YOU'RE THE ONE WHO HAS ILLUSIONS OF GRANDEUR!" and "MY DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR DADDY!" I'd advise your high and mighty graciousness to look at everything I've written and then look at everything you've written, and then bring specific examples of how I'm the one who's acting "high and mighty", when in fact as I showed before you're the one who seems to think of themselves as better than everyone. Of course, what's really funny is how you call what I've written in response to your typical one-liner nonsense replies "LONG-WINDED EXPLANATIONS AND POINTS", and even link your counter-accusations of illusions of grandeur against me to that same claim, without even TRYING to prove how or why that's the case. Logical fallacy much?

Lastly, I have to remind you that (internet argument or not), an empty accusation based on the chain of replies that constitutes our back-and-forth posts is just weak and desperate. Similarly, I could just as easily accuse you of trying to get the last word in, although, in this case, based on everything I've said and everything you've said, it's pretty easy to see who is simply trying to get the last word in, despite not having a point or anything to add at all. For that reason, and on the whole hypocrisy claim which reflects back on yourself for the aforementioned reasons, your last sentence just adds fuel to the backfire.

puddingpuppet
December 18, 2007 2:13 AM
So you see every single aspect of a person? You really think there are people out there who aren't hypocritical about one single thing throughout their entire lives? You must be living in an idealistic fantasy world. And don't bulls*** me, I can tell that you think you're better than me. At least I man up and admit that I just like pushing peoples buttons. But you, you act like you're so humble but if one person accuses you of something you get extremely defensive. Why should you care what someone says about you on a car forum? Does it really bother you what another person thinks about you, even if you probably will never meet them? How is continuously posting about how illogical something is, even when the opposing party doesn't give a s*** (me), not high and mighty? Clearly you're trying to prove something, be it that your smarter or whatever. And you really want to know why I started all this? Because of that first post where you claimed that guy was a racist "Azn-pride" tattooed ricer, when you didn't know s*** about him. It must be fun to make assumptions, so I figured I assumed you were a German fanboy, because after all, it's fun to make assumptions. I didn't know you, but you didn't know that guy either, but somehow it was ok to call him out for being a racist because he didn't think VW could catch up to Toyota. So, I did the same to you but I guess you didn't take it as well.

GeeDougg
December 19, 2007 9:00 AM
Just because I know people who aren't hypocritical doesn't mean I see every single aspect of a person - that's pretty moronic. Besides, you should know that what I said isn't absolute, and is also based on what I've seen. Asking whether someone is completely hypocritical or not always depends on what you can know about that person, which means you can't really know everything about them short of reading their minds. But it's still possible to judge someone's character (it's done all the time, whether at school or at work or in interviews, etc.) and make a conclusion as to whether or not said person's personality is a certain way or not. Based on everything that I know of at least a third of the people I've known throughout my life, I'd easily be able to claim they're not hypocritical, which means that for the most part they would never be hypocrites in at least 99% of the situations that they may face. The fact that you think every single person in the world is a hypocrite at some point in their lives is, as I said before, indicative of your own personality, and also goes to show what kinds of experiences you might have had and what type of person you deal with in real life on a daily basis. Now, you can mis-define that until you forget what you were saying in the first place, but you can't change that basic fact.

Also, as I said before, it would be just as easy for me to say "don't bulls*** me, I know you think you're better than me", but again, as I said before, in this case, at least what I said would be more believable based on your own track record here. You just don't seem to understand why your accusations aren't getting anywhere. You don't man up to anything by admitting you're a jackass - it's called playing it tough when you've lost the innocence play. My brother did it al the time when we were kids, and kids do it all the time when they're growing up. You simply resorted to the whole "I just like to f*** with people thing" when you realized that you couldn't possibly pass your original BS as fact. Being proven wrong and THEN having to change your tactics isn't "manning up" and "admitting" anything. I don't act humble, but in some aspects of how I deal with people I AM humble, because that's how I was raised. But please, since you're probably going to say "bulls***" to that too, do provide some proof or logical explanations for what you're saying, because so far you've done no such thing. I have a right to be defensive, and even then I'm not that defensive in this case. But I'm more than glad to prove you wrong and point out that your pointless jibber-jabber style counter to what I said to Lexakis won't go anywhere because I've at no point been racist towards anyone, whereas he has, and by claiming that I'm also being racist and hypocritical without ANY proof whatsoever (and having me prove that claim and accusation to be false), you've basically made yourself look like you're fighting with ulterior motives for something else. Whether you like it or not, you've set yourself up for the fall and now you're complaining. I have a right to care about what someone might accuse me of in a car forum or any other forum, for that matter, because for one, it's my right to care, and two, I'm not racist, and the person I was criticizing at least somewhat seemed to be, and if I'd simply not answered back and proven you wrong, the next person who read the comments might not ave realized how you were BSing. And what's funny is that you're bothered (though not entirely admitting it) to the point where you have to et the last word in despite not having a point at all or having anything original to add at any point in time here, which makes YOU hypocritical for asking why I care about what someone says about me on a car forum.

Now, if I may be allowed to ask, do you actually understand what high and mighty means?! Because as I said before, you don't have to think you're BETTER THAN SOMEONE ELSE to "continuously post" (even though that's what you yourself have also been doing, albeit without making sense or making a point) about how illogical something is?! Let's put it this way, you say 2+2=5, and then when I prove that 2+2=4, you change the subject and talk about how the square root of 17 is 3000, and then I point out that you're illogical. Does that make me HIGH AND MIGHTY?! I guess anytime anyone proves someone else wrong or proves that the opposite of something someone else said is true, they're really just being high and mighty.... That doesn't make any sense. Yes, clearly I've tried to prove certain things, and have done so. But whether you know I'm not trying to be high and mighty and that you yourself are, or you're just paranoid, the fact still remains that what I've been proving hasn't had anything to do with me being better than you; rather, it's been about how you started out by saying something completely irrelevant that you couldn't prove, and when you were called out for it and proven wrong, you took the low road. And I still don't give a s***, what you do or say or how you choose to respond, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to show that you're wrong when you make unfounded accusations against me just because it tickled your fancy or because you had nothing better to do, or because for all I know you yourself may be a ricist who can't deal with facts and has to counter them with accusations and personal attacks.... And I love how you finally admit why you really started all this (or claim as such), and are wrong right off the bat. Go back and read again: at what point in time did I CLAIM that lexakis was clearly a ricist? Exactly. I didn't. I simply pointed out that his style of argument was that of such a person, which is seen often in car-related discussions and forums and other circles. The same exists (though not to the same extent) with just about any other kind of extreme fanboy who might identify with Europe or North America or wherever else, but the fact remains that the person making the argument here was so off on what he said and so clearly just speaking out of pride and fanboyism that he reversed all the facts. And it's not fun to make assumptions, but when enough evidence exists, I can point it out given that I present the evidence from my viewpoint. Then if others disagree, they can discuss it or disagree in a rational and sane manner, which isn't at all what you did. As I said before, I don't know you in real life, and I have nothing against you, or anyone else for that matter. For all I know, lexakis and you and everyone else here could be perfectly normal, nice people in real life. But given the faceless nature of the medium, anyone would be inclined to disagree where they see something completely unfounded and irrelevant that goes against facts. Now, what the facts are, again, can be discussed and reviewed politely, maturely, and intelligently, but it has to start out that way. As you can see, with Lexakis, it didn't start out that way, and you yourself chose not to start that way either (at least after I showed that your tit-for-tat argument was nonsensical). Now you can start out fresh or continue being childish. Your call.

puddingpuppet
December 19, 2007 9:38 AM
Actually you asked him if he was the typical jealous racist type, so yeah you did identify him as a racist, just because he believed VW couldn't catch up to Toyota. And I think identifying someone's style of argument as a racist "Azn-pride" tattooed ricer is a thinly veiled way of saying they are a part of that. So yes, based on the evidence I've seen I can assume that you attacked that person just because he believed different than you. You didn't have to stereotype him to make your point about Toyota but for some reason you just had to include it. I just did that same to you. Simple as that.

GeeDougg
December 19, 2007 11:58 AM
It's funny, because I say something, and you quote me on it, and yet you explain the same thing you admit I said as being different than what you yourself quote. My exact words, since you need a refresher, were: "Lexakis, your style of "Azn-Pride"-tattooed ricer comment borders on subtle but not so well-hidden racism...", and also said, "I'm wondering if you're the typical jealous racist type who likes to think Japan makes the best cars in the world when clearly they're always behind Germany...." You yourself said I "asked him if he was the typical jealous racist type", and yet you say I "DID" identify him as a racist. How is that a definite accusation of racism when I clearly said "I'm wondering"?! And it's not just because he said he didn't believe VW couldn't catch up to Toyota. As I said in my first post, it was also the way he said it. Look up; at least a half-dozen other people here (and in other VW/Toyota articles) have claimed the same thing (that VW can't catch up to Toyota), and yet you don't see me taking issue with what they say.... Care to guess why...?! Thinly-veiled?! I'm not thinly-veiling anything. I'm clearly asking whether or not it IS that. And so, we conclude that your method of gathering "evidence" sucks, "simple as that", because if you'd cared to actually cross-reference my comment with what I've said to other people you'd see that I'm not attacking him for "believing differently than I do", and you really seem to be trying to hammer that notion home, which isn't working. I didn't stereotype him "because he believed differently", I stated that I wondered as to the possibility of him being the typical ricist Asian-suremacist for his unrealistically misguided and one-sided arguments, which, might I add, were followed by him using the specific term "German dinosaurs". You may not be able to perceive it, but my point wasn't exactly all about Toyota, hence the specific answer to Lexakis in that particular comment. That should be pretty obvious. That you even took issue with something so obvious is questionable at best. You didn't do "the same" to me - you basically jumped the gun and attacked me for pointing out what seemed (and still seems) to be a glaringly obvious case of prejudice in comment form. Deal with it.

puddingpuppet
December 19, 2007 6:02 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

puddingpuppet
December 19, 2007 6:07 PM
And from what I've always seen even if you're "wondering" if someone is a racist, it's a pretty good bet that you already have a strong preconception that they are. So f*** you.

GeeDougg
December 20, 2007 7:24 AM
Whatever helps ME sleep at night?! Haha, that's cute.... And by the way, that's a good answer. You just gave up again and resorted to more childishness. Just keep proving yourself to be an ass.

GeeDougg
December 20, 2007 7:24 AM
People had a pretty strong "preconception" that Saddam was racist too.... Guess what? They were right. And I don't know what the insult at the end is for anyway. Looks like you've pushed your own buttons on this one too. I never resorted to that s*** but if you think it'll help- your argument then continue.

puddingpuppet
December 20, 2007 7:55 AM
So you are admitting that you think lexakis is a racist even know you don't know that person?

GeeDougg
December 20, 2007 6:52 PM
Gee I thought we already went through this.... As I said before (I'm repeating myself a lot for no reason here), I don't have to know him personally to suspect racism or even bias. Grow up.

puddingpuppet
December 20, 2007 7:56 AM
And no I just don't like you, so I pretty much say "F*** you" to people I don't like.

GeeDougg
December 20, 2007 6:56 PM
Oh really?! "So you're admitting" then that you don't like me even though you don't know me personally?! Haha...! I like how you tell me I can't make a judgment on whether someone is being biased or prejudiced based on their words, and yet you go as far as admitting you just simply don't like me for MY words (same thing, basically, only yours is an open admission that you've got me all figured out).... Stop projecting and don't talk to me about hypocrisy when everything you say is filled with it.

puddingpuppet
December 22, 2007 1:03 AM
There's a difference between saying you don't like someone and accusing someone of being a racist and/or bigot. Maybe not to you though. And I don't have you figured out, I just know I don't like you.

antmindel
December 22, 2007 12:21 PM
I have owned a Camry...as well as 4 Jettas...and the Jettas are fun to drive...have lots of luxury and safety features...look great and have excellent resale values. I think by comparison Toyotas are dull and boring. Give me any VW any day.

GeeDougg
December 23, 2007 6:34 AM
It's not just that they're dull and boring - they're also highly overrated. We're a Toyota family in many ways because my dad refuses to pay a bit more and get a lot more for the money, so with each and every new Toyota we encounter more and more problems, both small and big. Our current Toyota gets OK gas mileage for a ~110BHP engine, and that's just about the only thing about it that's mentionable. Every time you turn the key, black smoke comes out of the exhaust pipe for a half-minute or so. The suspension (especially at the front) is flimsy and unsorted, and you'd think they sacrificed sportines for comfort, but surprisingly it's not that comfortable for how weak-kneed it is (nevermind that it sounds like Soviet industrial machinery from the 60's breaking apart every time you go over a bump). The electrics are crappy, the powered windows are getting weaker every day, the rear lights randomly decide to go out every once in a while, the hubcaps are misaligned and begging to come off, the doors creak, the lock is unreliable, the dashboard is made of tracing paper, it looks uglier than a babboon's ass, and the plasticy interior is shamefully low-quality and flimsy even for plastic (the latest thing that managed to break for no reason at all was the front passenger flip-open mirror hinge, which not only broke, it shattered - and let's not even get into how they never even stay properly closed). VW's have had their share of problems in the past (North American Mk4 Golf, anyone?!), and they have their problems like any other company, but what the hell makes Toyotas any better? At least with the average VW you're tempted to go a bit faster and have more fun every once in a while, and you get a decent-looking car that does its job day in day out. All this fanboyist bullshit about how the Toyota makes more reliable cars JUST BECAUSE they're Toyota is complete and utter proven bulls***.

GeeDougg
December 23, 2007 6:50 AM
Yeah, and since in this case they're both over the internet and you don't know what either me or Lexakis are like in real life, you can't make a big enough judgment on someone to say you don't like them. As I said before (which you conveniently continue to ignore for obvious reasons), you don't have to know someone to suspect something about them, but you'd have to know them to be sure about what kind of person they are. I merely SUSPECTED that Lexakis was being biased and showing prejudice, whereas you've admitted that you've already decided you know me well enough not to like me or to say "f*** you". Basically, I call bulls***. You know you're sidestepping and you can't just ignore it and water it down. You called me high and mighty and yet you're the one acting high and mighty, and you also accused me of hypocrisy even though you're the only one being a hypocrite. None of your stories check out. At least sort your BS out enough not to constantly fall into argumentative traps. There's no difference between saying you don't like someone or accusing someone of being a bigot, because both of them require a more thorough judgement of character, but in this case it doesn't even matter because I never plainly and simply called Lexakis racist, whereas you just said quite literally that "you just know" you "don't like me". Not that I admire the s*** out of you or anything, haha.... But then I guess some people hate being proven wrong after acting like an ass (be it in real life or on the internet), so that's probably why you don't like me very much as a person. Boohoo, let me grab a napkin. At this point, after all the mud you've desperately thrown against the wall, not being liked by you is a bit of an honour.

puddingpuppet
December 23, 2007 7:07 AM
That doesn't change anything. I just know I wouldn't like you. Don't have to freak out about it.

GeeDougg
December 23, 2007 8:19 AM
ROFL - good answer...; NOT! That doesn't change anything?! WTF are you talking about?! Haha.... You just knew you wouldn't like me from the start eh?! Cosmic knowledge? Angels talking to you? Whatever.... And I'm not exactly "freaking out about it" - but I AM pointing out how ridiculous some of the things you say are....

puddingpuppet
December 23, 2007 7:11 AM
Here, I'll even help you out a bit. I SUPSPECT that I don't like you. Is that better? Are you done with the hissy fit now?

GeeDougg
December 23, 2007 8:23 AM
Oh so now it changes to "SUSPECT I don't like you".... Nice save, after I pointed out how none of the things you say stick together. And of course, what would an argument from you be without another projection of guilt? 'Cuz yeah, it's ME throwing the hissy-fit, not you who's first message here was a pointless attack that didn't even have anything to do with the topic.... Your playground level arguments and back-and-forth bipolar attitudes of being innocent and behaved one minute and a complete ass who thinks he's better than everyone the next minute are kind'a getting old.

GeeDougg
January 6, 2008 6:29 AM
Brilliantly put. I can't for the f***ing life of me think of a better answer to top that. So, yeah, bicycle....

puddingpuppet
January 12, 2008 4:16 AM
You need a hug don't you.

GeeDougg
January 30, 2008 3:35 AM
What a horrifically pathetic attempt at changing the subject after getting owned....

puddingpuppet
January 7, 2008 4:37 AM
Somebody's still taking this awfully seriously.

GeeDougg
January 30, 2008 3:38 AM
Haha - must be that time of the month again - you know, that time of the month when you shift back instead to playing the joker who'd doing this to get a laugh after failing to prove any point at all and making yourself sound more and more immature and incapable of rational discussions.

puddingpuppet
February 1, 2008 9:03 AM
Yep, you definitely need a hug. Somehow you still seem to love putting me down, even when I'm clearly not caring about proving anything. Must be fun having small-dick syndrome.

GeeDougg
February 20, 2008 10:37 PM
Bla bla bla, more BS - you're crying out for attention and proving yourself to be a douche with your Freudian slips and constant annoying habits of changing your b**** tactics; have fun convincing yourself that you don't "care about proving anything".... And wow, "small-dick syndrome" eh?! How long did it take you to brew up that golden masterpiece of an insult? You must be tired after that one.... It's just a matter of time now until, well, we'll see, haha....

puddingpuppet
March 2, 2008 10:46 PM
I see you're still attacking me to make yourself feel big. That's ok, maybe someday you'll learn you don't need to berate everyone to give some meaning to your existence. All I did was offer a hug, but I guess the high and mighty GeeDougg is too good for that.

GeeDougg
April 2, 2008 3:21 AM
We've already been over this, and you were already proven to be a huge liar/hypocrite; stop hiding under the same bullshit blanket. At least you were kind'a original to being with - now it's just gotten pathetic.

puddingpuppet
April 11, 2008 1:54 PM
I can't believe you still haven't realized I've just been f*cking around and having fun with you. Some people will always take themselves too seriously I guess.

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